Comments on: A Critique of Pure Parental Instinct. With apologies to Kant. http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/ Backpacking Dad Wed, 08 Sep 2010 13:59:00 -0700 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Annie @ PhD in Parenting http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/comment-page-1/#comment-19232 Annie @ PhD in Parenting Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:50:24 +0000 http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/#comment-19232 Like you, I worry that I don't have the answers or the guidance. But I also realize that if I did, my kids would not be likely to listen! I think I will have a greater chance of influencing my children and leading them down a path to success by asking the right questions and getting them to do the thinking on their own. Not only will it teach them to think on their own, but they are also more likely to take their own advice than to take mine. Like you, I worry that I don’t have the answers or the guidance. But I also realize that if I did, my kids would not be likely to listen! I think I will have a greater chance of influencing my children and leading them down a path to success by asking the right questions and getting them to do the thinking on their own. Not only will it teach them to think on their own, but they are also more likely to take their own advice than to take mine.

]]> By: SheWho http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/comment-page-1/#comment-19231 SheWho Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:34:59 +0000 http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/#comment-19231 Oh, dear me. In a house with one bathroom and 8 people (currently) I don't have the energy to wax thus philosophical. However, I can look at one thing with many years and even more mommy-hours) as a parent behind me. That defiance is gold. That's the part of her that can "Say no to drugs" and slap a suitor in his pimply face. That's the piece that makes the contractor FINISH the floor and the faculty advisor actually show up to a meeting. So what you want is to teach her how to respect other people as people. There's where not only your (somewhat, my friend, over-analytical and abstracted) instincts come into play but also hers. Because she wants what SHE wants (as we all do) but she also wants to be part of the big picture, particularly at this age. Maria Montessori said children "crave to be of use." The social task (as I see it) is making that natural drive towards competence operate within considering the POV of others. For example, I've often asked my children to climb off something because they were making some watching adult uncomfortable. We're clear that that's about respect for feelings, and not their monkey skill-sets. :D And the REALLY good news is that the behaviorism you seem to be attached to is mostly crap. At some point the neural net rules, without your control of the input. ;p Oh, dear me. In a house with one bathroom and 8 people (currently) I don’t have the energy to wax thus philosophical. However, I can look at one thing with many years and even more mommy-hours) as a parent behind me. That defiance is gold. That’s the part of her that can “Say no to drugs” and slap a suitor in his pimply face. That’s the piece that makes the contractor FINISH the floor and the faculty advisor actually show up to a meeting. So what you want is to teach her how to respect other people as people. There’s where not only your (somewhat, my friend, over-analytical and abstracted) instincts come into play but also hers. Because she wants what SHE wants (as we all do) but she also wants to be part of the big picture, particularly at this age. Maria Montessori said children “crave to be of use.” The social task (as I see it) is making that natural drive towards competence operate within considering the POV of others. For example, I’ve often asked my children to climb off something because they were making some watching adult uncomfortable. We’re clear that that’s about respect for feelings, and not their monkey skill-sets. :D

And the REALLY good news is that the behaviorism you seem to be attached to is mostly crap. At some point the neural net rules, without your control of the input. ;p

]]> By: excavator http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/comment-page-1/#comment-19202 excavator Wed, 19 Aug 2009 16:25:37 +0000 http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/#comment-19202 I'm remembering something Black Hockey Jesus wrote in one of his earlier posts: it had to do with the tortured nature of a job that requires him to socialize children to a seriously sick culture. I listened to a discussion some time ago about the evolutionary leaps humans made around the time their diet switched to meat-based. If I'm remembering this right, there were several biological changes in a perfect storm--the cerebral hemispheres grew larger, enabling speech, and also a conciliatory instinct, which enabled humans to live together without killing each other. We needed to congregate in groups, because that increased our chances of survival and reproductive success. (As an aside, it was startling to consider that humans possess a conciliatory instinct? And here I'd grown up very aware of the human capacity to destroy each other. I guess it used to be worse.) Therefore we needed to be able to get along. So I'm inclined to think there is a basis in instinct in socialization. And it rises to the level of survival-based instincts, because socialization is about survival too. What is tricky is parsing the threads--some risky social behavior may be rooted in a conciliatory instinct that has survival as it's motivator. I suppose that's what underlies the dynamic of peer pressure. Perhaps that's what you're saying, that the instinct to survive may actually be detrimental and ultimately hinder our ability to thrive. Certainly actions that are based in fear can be alienating and provoke hostility. Maybe there is some version of that active in Erin when she wants something desperately and a survival drive is activated when it's thwarted. And she doesn't have the perspective to see what you see--that her 'vision' is actually going to threaten her survival. Sometimes, when we find ourselves in a public social situation and our child is the only one (loudly) misbehaving, we may feel ourselves in survival mode--embarrassed that our kid is making us look bad. Surely face-saving is also a version of 'survival'? This may cause us to not see options that would otherwise be open to us and cause us to act in ways that damages our connection with our child. I think there is an instinct that is at the core and is applicable despite the technological and cultural shifts and changes. That is our 'instinct' for connection with our children. I think that's what you were referring to when you said, "When I address Erin's soul, and correct her will, I operate on an empathic level; I feel emotions and I relay emotions and those emotions guard, guide, and govern hers." I don't see any difference between Erin's soul, and Erin's 'neural network' . (I really like that, 'neural network'.) I think when you operate on an empathic level you are maintaining connection with her, and you are operating from instinct. I think this is the context where she can take from you, like milk from a breast, the guidance of how to behave. And how to tell the difference between which survival-based impulse trumps which. I like this guy's thoughts on parenting a lot: www.enjoyparenting.com I’m remembering something Black Hockey Jesus wrote in one of his earlier posts: it had to do with the tortured nature of a job that requires him to socialize children to a seriously sick culture.

I listened to a discussion some time ago about the evolutionary leaps humans made around the time their diet switched to meat-based. If I’m remembering this right, there were several biological changes in a perfect storm–the cerebral hemispheres grew larger, enabling speech, and also a conciliatory instinct, which enabled humans to live together without killing each other. We needed to congregate in groups, because that increased our chances of survival and reproductive success. (As an aside, it was startling to consider that humans possess a conciliatory instinct? And here I’d grown up very aware of the human capacity to destroy each other. I guess it used to be worse.) Therefore we needed to be able to get along.

So I’m inclined to think there is a basis in instinct in socialization. And it rises to the level of survival-based instincts, because socialization is about survival too. What is tricky is parsing the threads–some risky social behavior may be rooted in a conciliatory instinct that has survival as it’s motivator. I suppose that’s what underlies the dynamic of peer pressure.

Perhaps that’s what you’re saying, that the instinct to survive may actually be detrimental and ultimately hinder our ability to thrive. Certainly actions that are based in fear can be alienating and provoke hostility. Maybe there is some version of that active in Erin when she wants something desperately and a survival drive is activated when it’s thwarted. And she doesn’t have the perspective to see what you see–that her ‘vision’ is actually going to threaten her survival. Sometimes, when we find ourselves in a public social situation and our child is the only one (loudly) misbehaving, we may feel ourselves in survival mode–embarrassed that our kid is making us look bad. Surely face-saving is also a version of ‘survival’? This may cause us to not see options that would otherwise be open to us and cause us to act in ways that damages our connection with our child.

I think there is an instinct that is at the core and is applicable despite the technological and cultural shifts and changes. That is our ‘instinct’ for connection with our children. I think that’s what you were referring to when you said, “When I address Erin’s soul, and correct her will, I operate on an empathic level; I feel emotions and I relay emotions and those emotions guard, guide, and govern hers.”

I don’t see any difference between Erin’s soul, and Erin’s ‘neural network’ . (I really like that, ‘neural network’.) I think when you operate on an empathic level you are maintaining connection with her, and you are operating from instinct. I think this is the context where she can take from you, like milk from a breast, the guidance of how to behave. And how to tell the difference between which survival-based impulse trumps which.

I like this guy’s thoughts on parenting a lot: http://www.enjoyparenting.com

]]> By: Backpacking Dad http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/comment-page-1/#comment-19200 Backpacking Dad Tue, 18 Aug 2009 21:41:33 +0000 http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/#comment-19200 Really, the assumption is not that culture and technology have been static, but that their recent changes have been so rapid compared to historical changes that there is no way the evolutionary mechanism could have kept up. And as I said in the post itself I disagree that the situations we find ourselves in now are of a kind with pre-historic situations; if they were of a kind then you'd be right to suspect that the instincts we do have are appropriate, even if impoverished, for dealing with those situations. I don't imply that there have been ZERO evolutionary changes to our instincts in dealing with new cultural or technological changes. Just that that mechanism for change is so badly outpaced that it makes relying on those instincts very, very suspect. The place to press me, really, is this move that says our instincts, because they are for dealing with kinds of situations that are different from contemporary ones, are therefore ill-suited, or even hindrances, to dealing with those situations. It could be the case that it just so happens that our instinctive responses are exactly the responses that are appropriate. But if that is so then it is not because the evolutionary mechanism selected appropriately through reproductive success, but because of luck. Without a mechanism in place that would let us view them as appropriate, and predict that they will be appropriate, if they just so happen to work there is no reliable rule that will let us say "in all X, instincts will guide appropriately", because it just so happens that it works in this case. Really, the assumption is not that culture and technology have been static, but that their recent changes have been so rapid compared to historical changes that there is no way the evolutionary mechanism could have kept up. And as I said in the post itself I disagree that the situations we find ourselves in now are of a kind with pre-historic situations; if they were of a kind then you’d be right to suspect that the instincts we do have are appropriate, even if impoverished, for dealing with those situations. I don’t imply that there have been ZERO evolutionary changes to our instincts in dealing with new cultural or technological changes. Just that that mechanism for change is so badly outpaced that it makes relying on those instincts very, very suspect.

The place to press me, really, is this move that says our instincts, because they are for dealing with kinds of situations that are different from contemporary ones, are therefore ill-suited, or even hindrances, to dealing with those situations. It could be the case that it just so happens that our instinctive responses are exactly the responses that are appropriate.

But if that is so then it is not because the evolutionary mechanism selected appropriately through reproductive success, but because of luck. Without a mechanism in place that would let us view them as appropriate, and predict that they will be appropriate, if they just so happen to work there is no reliable rule that will let us say “in all X, instincts will guide appropriately”, because it just so happens that it works in this case.

]]> By: Steve http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/comment-page-1/#comment-19199 Steve Tue, 18 Aug 2009 20:51:27 +0000 http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/#comment-19199 I think that you're needlessly insulting your evolved instincts when it comes to the socialisation of your children. You make an assumption that culture and technology have been largely static until recent times, which seems largely unwarranted. Those instincts involve understanding social norms, how to conform (and thrive) within them -- that's the survival mechanism. There is no reason to believe that it is specific to a given society, culture, or set of technologies. While the changing face of society (and new technologies arising daily) are certainly parenting challenges that need to be tackled, ignoring your instincts is not necessarily going to be a universally correct response. I think that you’re needlessly insulting your evolved instincts when it comes to the socialisation of your children. You make an assumption that culture and technology have been largely static until recent times, which seems largely unwarranted.

Those instincts involve understanding social norms, how to conform (and thrive) within them — that’s the survival mechanism. There is no reason to believe that it is specific to a given society, culture, or set of technologies.

While the changing face of society (and new technologies arising daily) are certainly parenting challenges that need to be tackled, ignoring your instincts is not necessarily going to be a universally correct response.

]]> By: MereCat http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/comment-page-1/#comment-19198 MereCat Tue, 18 Aug 2009 18:11:41 +0000 http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/#comment-19198 Arrows are really dangerous, you know. I stopped using them years ago. They just really didn't work all that well anymore, either. Seriously, though, I understand exactly where you're coming from. I've been instinct parenting because I think that the world is so much different than the parenting book writers write about. If I could impart one thing in my children that will give them the ability to navigate through the world that they will be living in (which will be even different from today,) it would be the ability to make good judgements, and to develop their instincts so that they know how to deal with stuff themselves. Tall order, though. Arrows are really dangerous, you know. I stopped using them years ago. They just really didn’t work all that well anymore, either.

Seriously, though, I understand exactly where you’re coming from. I’ve been instinct parenting because I think that the world is so much different than the parenting book writers write about. If I could impart one thing in my children that will give them the ability to navigate through the world that they will be living in (which will be even different from today,) it would be the ability to make good judgements, and to develop their instincts so that they know how to deal with stuff themselves. Tall order, though.

]]> By: AmyAnne http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/comment-page-1/#comment-19195 AmyAnne Tue, 18 Aug 2009 04:22:49 +0000 http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/#comment-19195 I agree with Angela and I'd like to add a phrase I have taught my kids to repeat: "Ok, Mommy, no problem." And if they don't say it fast enough, I stop the conversation with it, in my most mocking tone, "Ok, Mommy, no problem." Then I just stand there with my one eyebrow cocked until they walk away saying things under their breath. It works the best if you start teaching them right when they start talking but can be pretty effective if implemented later. It's like, you know, giving them the script. But I'm just now thinking "My defiance is frustrating to my parents" might be a good one to add to the arsenal. Especially if I can get the 10 year old to catch on. Oh how satisfying that would be to hear coming from that mouth. I agree with Angela and I’d like to add a phrase I have taught my kids to repeat:
“Ok, Mommy, no problem.” And if they don’t say it fast enough, I stop the conversation with it, in my most mocking tone, “Ok, Mommy, no problem.” Then I just stand there with my one eyebrow cocked until they walk away saying things under their breath. It works the best if you start teaching them right when they start talking but can be pretty effective if implemented later. It’s like, you know, giving them the script.
But I’m just now thinking “My defiance is frustrating to my parents” might be a good one to add to the arsenal. Especially if I can get the 10 year old to catch on. Oh how satisfying that would be to hear coming from that mouth.

]]> By: Shari http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/comment-page-1/#comment-19193 Shari Mon, 17 Aug 2009 17:06:29 +0000 http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/#comment-19193 I try to make sure the girls don't repeat my mistakes. I realize they will make their own, but I don't want them to repeat mine. I try to make sure the girls don’t repeat my mistakes. I realize they will make their own, but I don’t want them to repeat mine.

]]> By: Bethany http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/comment-page-1/#comment-19192 Bethany Mon, 17 Aug 2009 13:44:44 +0000 http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/#comment-19192 I want to say that you had me at really really ridiculously good-looking, b/c that movie is.the.funniest.ever. Then I kept reading and had to ponder. From the view of a mom of 4, sometimes things become a little clearer. Nature and nurture will both have their way - we began parenting all 4 the same way, and then their natures diverged and we had to re-evaluate our tactics. 8 yrs in, I feel strongly that children are so adaptable, and will inevitably interpret everything we do through their own filter. The best tools we have are our hearts and our intentions. If we go through each day intending to parent and guide the very best way we can, then even if we make mistakes, the positive intent is there. Perfection is not required, just the intent of a good heart. Thanks for the deep thought on a Monday a.m. - not even going to touch the topic of which direction society is heading... :) I want to say that you had me at really really ridiculously good-looking, b/c that movie is.the.funniest.ever. Then I kept reading and had to ponder. From the view of a mom of 4, sometimes things become a little clearer. Nature and nurture will both have their way – we began parenting all 4 the same way, and then their natures diverged and we had to re-evaluate our tactics. 8 yrs in, I feel strongly that children are so adaptable, and will inevitably interpret everything we do through their own filter. The best tools we have are our hearts and our intentions. If we go through each day intending to parent and guide the very best way we can, then even if we make mistakes, the positive intent is there. Perfection is not required, just the intent of a good heart. Thanks for the deep thought on a Monday a.m. – not even going to touch the topic of which direction society is heading… :)

]]> By: Angela http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/comment-page-1/#comment-19191 Angela Mon, 17 Aug 2009 13:38:46 +0000 http://backpackingdad.com/2009/08/a-critique-of-pure-parental-instinct-with-apologies-to-kant/#comment-19191 Overthinking. You're doing it right. My philosophy: If you're worrying this much about it, you must be doing a good job. Overthinking. You’re doing it right.

My philosophy: If you’re worrying this much about it, you must be doing a good job.

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