Feminism and the Immersed Parent
It sounds strange to some people when I say I’m a feminist. To them all feminists have one thing in common: fem-ness. But feminism is a to-philosophy rather than a from-philosophy: it aims toward parity and equality rather than emerging from inherent traits. In fact, it is a from-philosophy that feminism is a reaction against: the philosophy that biological differences are relevant in non-biological spheres.
Sarcastically stated, feminism is “the radical idea that women are people.” (Kramarae and Treichler) More generally, the goal of feminism is to approach the world as though biological differences are irrelevant where they ought to be irrelevant, and to resist the urge to introduce them into discussions where they don’t belong. This means not assuming that girls aren’t “built” for math, or business, or aggression, or rationality. It means not using irrelevant biological facts as predictors of intellect or behaviour. The end result of a feminist approach to the world is a world where gender equality has just happened, because no one carries with them any irrational, irrelevant beliefs about gender. It is not as much a demand for equality as a demand for rationality, and equality is the payoff.
A lot of contemporary, nth-wave feminist effort is being exerted against the structure that still seems to maintain the classic gender roles in families: increased attention is paid to women in the workplace, maternity leave, breast-feeding, pumping, flex-time, health-care and pre-natal care, tele-commuting, all with the intent of achieving for women what men have seem to have gained effortlessly: input into the economic and social structures that impact their own lives, because it is those structures that make the housewife ideal so powerful, and it is that ideal that does so much harm to the effort to dismiss biological differences in areas where those differences are irrelevant.
With this effort comes a severe line: Men must recognize the changes that need to occur; reorganize themselves so that they no longer even unconsciously relegate women to roles based on details of gender; and accept different roles themselves.
One of these roles men must accept, the most important and the most foundational, is the role of Immersed Parent. Anecdotally and historically fathers have not been Immersed Parents as a rule; the primary caregiver, by dint of being primary was immersed while the other parent was a little removed. Fathers today are being asked, and are asking, to be immersed just as, classically, mothers have been. Not every father is being asked to become a primary caregiver, an at-home dad, or even to come up with a complicated scheme to ensure that the parenting responsibilities are divided utterly equitably. But I think every father is being asked, now, to be Immersed in his fatherhood. Because with this immersion comes a respect for a role that women have traditionally maintained, and a different perspective on the social and economic conditions affecting that role.
An Immersed Parent is surrounded by his parenting, un-detached, un-removed, un-distanced, and un-afraid. An immersed parent doesn’t have to know every detail of his child’s day, but will consider that day important to the active development of the child. An immersed parent doesn’t have to be the one doing the cooking or the cleaning, but will care that the child is receiving good nutrition and living in a clean environment. An immersed parent doesn’t have to be the one singing lullabies at night, but cares that the child sleeps well. An immersed parent doesn’t have to be the one to attend school board and PTA meetings, but cares about the quality of education the child receives. An immersed parent doesn’t have to be at home all the time, but cares about what happens at home in his absence. An immersed parent makes decisions, informed decisions, and active decisions, with his partner about raising the child. An Immersed Parent can parent. An Immersed Parent is never a baby-sitter to his children.
Part of the job is already being done as fathers step into at-home roles and immerse themselves very successfully. But here they face resistance from not only other men, who resist the changing roles and the infection of the workplace with domesticity. They also face a peculiar sort of resistance from women. Some women view at-home dads in a spectacularly evil light, as sexual prowlers hoping to seduce neighbourhood moms. But even more insidious is the casual assumption that men are buffoons when placed in a domestic role. This assumption, and the dismissal of male competence in the home and with the children, does more, I think, to deter men from stepping into those roles on their own than any pressure from male peers.
And here is the heart of this piece: I want you, ladies, to stop writing about how hilariously incompetent your husband was that day when you left him with the kids. I want you to stop writing about how pissed off you were that he couldn’t even make toast for the kids and let you sleep in for an extra half hour on the weekend. Even if it’s true the telling of stories like that, and the seeking out of like-minded women who can shake their heads ruefully with you, is a magnificent obstacle to the increase in Immersed Fathers. It is subtle misandry, misogyny’s dance partner, and it is an obstacle to the very balance and equality that would help you to never feel that kind of superiority, disappointment, and anger ever again. It is an obstacle to the creation of a class of men who collaborate with you to change social and economic structures that will result in gender equality and improved work-life balance. Think about the converse situation, in which men would congregate to laugh about the sad attempts of the newly “liberated” women to operate in a man’s world. Did it, does it, happen? Yes, I’m certain of it. But it is not something to be tolerated, and it is certainly not something to be lauded.
This ought to be something any woman who considers herself even remotely feminist should embrace. But it’s difficult, because people are so confessional in their writings and these are genuine feelings. Shouldn’t we encourage the expression of genuine feelings? Imagine the converse, again: should we encourage misogynistic expressions if they represent the genuine feelings of the misogynist? I think the answer is no. We ought not commiserate in either misogyny or misandry. But surely it isn’t really misandry, especially if the man himself will admit his own incompetence at home, right? The parallel to the housewife who is just convinced, golly-gee, that she has no head for numbers ought to be obvious, and damning in reply. If you want to change the world you have to want to change your own world, the small one around you, and that starts with respecting men as Fathers, writ-large, even if as an individual father they do kind of a terrible job. Respecting the Father, I think, means not undermining the Immersed Father by polluting the dialogue with tales of bumbling, embarrassing, incompetence. If your husband needs help or training in parenting then help him, but don’t shame him as a parent.
Fish out of water stories are funny. But just as the workplace does not need to be structured solely according to male needs and input, neither does parenthood need to be defined according to what mom would do. If a father is participating, immersing himself in his fatherhood, then he is going to change the way the family is organized, just as having women in the workforce in large numbers has changed the way businesses operate by accommodating both their needs and input. This change is just change. A father will change the structure of domestic life according to his needs and interests. You may not like it, but before you condemn it and resist it wonder about changes in the workplace that men may not have liked at first, and perhaps still don’t. The benefits of those changes are not always obvious to our raw hearts and closed minds.
There are lots of definitions of feminism out there, but here’s a new one for you: Feminism is the radical notion that fathers are parents.
91 comments
Wow, great post.
My husband has much-younger siblings and experience with babies, while I had none, and I saw how easy it would have been for him to put me down or make me lose confidence when I was learning. He never did, and now that our second boy is clingier to me, I am in the other position. We are 100% co-parents, but takes effort – an effort that would not succeed if either of us were being gatekeepers.
I’m glad you state you’re a feminist and like your new definition. Do you read Daddy Dialectic? Jeremy Adam Smith writes thoughtfully about the roles of fathers, and this would be a good cross-posting or link there.
http://daddy-dialectic.blogspot.com/index.html
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Great post!!!
I’m thankful for the active/immersed parenting role that my husband plays in our household. He might not do things exactly like I would, but sometimes it leads us to finding a better way overall, so it is worth it.
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These are the big leagues, Shawn. Watch out.
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I like this. And I’m going to send it to my ‘what the hell is a blog’ husband because there’s two sides of this – there’s bitching about how useless he is, but there’s also, as you say, the immersed parent. Which I wish he was.
Feminism definitely means that both parents are both parents. That’s what I don’t feel is happening, and that’s why I can end up getting bitchy about his uselessness.
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wow – this is FANTASTIC. well written!
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I love this perspective. And I can’t wait to share it with my husband, a wonderful stay at home dad who is the very embodiment of immersed parent and feminist (and yet still thinks it’s a dirty word sometimes).
Thanks Shawn!
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This is freaking awesome. Even if some of it scares me. Because our domestic life is structured around football season, thanks to my immersive co-parenting partner.
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Well done Burns.
You’ve got me wondering if I’ve ever been guilty of shaming Boo on my blog for his parenting. I don’t think I have, but now I’m going to wonder about it all day long.
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Powerfully put. Thank you for this. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
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WOO HOO! Fantastic post. And we must all stop glorifying media that perpetuates this bs. Everybody Loves Raymond? King of Queens? ANY television show in which a man is a worthless oaf who must be parented and yelled into submission by his female partner. These shows are REPUGNANT and the very definition of misandry. The flip side, of course, is that they also reinforce the stereotypes of woman as shrew, as irrationally unable to contol her emotions, and as somehow better tuned to care for the needs of children. DIfferently socialized? Absolutely. Inherently better? Fuck that noise.
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[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by BackpackingDad. BackpackingDad said: Feminism and the Immersed Parent: http://bit.ly/1asnoz [...]
Wonderfully said.
As a feminist and a pragmatist, I believe it is always necessary to question both our own beliefs and our own actions. Yet, it is always difficult to do, and particularly difficult to hear from someone else.
Even without kids, and parenting issues, I’ve always had to struggle in our marriage against telling this same kind of “fish out of water” story about my husband. Sometimes, to my own shame, I’ve failed. While I am excellent at analyzing the meaning and effect of the language other people use, I needed this nudge to remind me to be just as analytical about my own language.
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I love this! My husband is a GREAT father. He and I both work full-time, but on opposite shifts. So he cares for our daughter all morning. He’s actually with her more hours of the day than I am. And you know what? He’s AWESOME.
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Very thought-provoking and challenging.
As a woman raised in the South, it sometimes feels like the prevailing notion is that men are adorable, incompetent bunglers on the home front who, conversely, have all of the power in every other arena– financial, political, in the workplace, etc. Neither stereotype is accurate, but as you point out, it is up to us to stop perpetuating them by passively allowing them to continue or worse, actively passing them on to our children.
Good post, Shawn.
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I am disturbed by this somehow. I can’t quite put my finger on it yet, so I will think on it and get back to you.
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Oh you crazy, crazy man with your crazy ideas.
It must be that time of the month for you.
Go make me a sandwich and you’ll feel better.
Seriously, good post. I have written a post or two about my husband having a hard time alone with our little one. I don’t apologize for it, it’s a funny post, and he had no idea what he was doing!
However, it’s probably important to point out that he was thrown into something completely knew. He fumbled because he was not familiar with the territory, not because he was of the male gender. The same goes for a first time ,new mom. That lost “I don’t know what I’m doing” feeling.
He is now a fully immersed, wonderful father
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Thank you- it is a tremendous breath of fresh air to read this from a man’s point of view. Not only do I fully trust and value my husband’s fathering, but I expect it. He doesn’t “babysit” or “watch” our children, he fathers them. I may not agree with all he does, but I recognize that it’s a parenting difference, not a gender one.
Bravo!
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thank you, very much, for this. I sent it via tweet with a “thank you” to my co-parenting, fully immersed husband.
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(delurking)
Thank you for this post. My husband is a part-time SAHD and I get tired of having to defend the fact that my husband is very qualified to care for our children. And no I don’t feel guilty that my kids have to go to daycare.
I also love your definition of feminism! I am that kind of feminist.
(relurking)
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Wow. Awesome, thought-provoking post. I feel like apologizing on behalf of woman-kind. Your “coverse situation” scenerio really hits it home. Thanks for putting it out there.
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I loved reading your perspective. I hope it opens a few eyes.
I’m one that is always bitching TO my husband, who then says something like, “Hello? When I’m home I’m ‘on’ just like you, and the rest of the time when I’m working which isn’t a piece of cake either.”
I think he’d rather trade some days.
It does irritate me though when he gets a pat on the back, or praise for pushing the kids on the swing, or taking them out somewhere. Sometimes he, and other people get all excited just because he’s parenting. Um, they are his kids too.
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[...] from: Feminism and the Immersed Parent — Backpacking Dad September 11th, 2009 at 10:07 [...]
I’d love to read a follow up where you offer some actionable tips to approach non-immersive-parents.
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I’m a member of a message board for mothers with kids born around the same time (month) as my son. There is often this kind of husband-bashing – the “he works all day and ignores me when he gets home” “he never cleans anything” – and I always think, give me a break. Partly because in our situation, the one who’d be guilty of that would be me. But also because it’s such bullshit, and you are absolutely right, it would not be tolerated if it were flipped genderwise.
I will share this post with my stay-at-home-dad (mostly, I just call him a dad). I recently shared with him the post you wrote comparing insurance to gambling – since then, he’s been calling you “my guy” whenever we discuss that post. Maybe now you can be “his guy.”
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Fantastic post!
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GOOD STUFF!
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Yeah, but I’m still not giving up control of the remote.
Word, S.
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Great post, although I feel like it hit a nerve.
I certainly identified with Emma’s response. We shouldn’t be shaming our husbands publicly (or even privately), and yet some of them need a swift kick in the hiney to be more involved in their kids’ lives.
I wish my husband would learn how to install a car seat or give our son his ADHD medication (both of which he’s never done). He’s smart and competent, and yet when I ask him to learn these basic “how-to” tasks, he jokes that it’s my job. He frequently travels for business, so a lot of the time, I feel like a single mother to three kids.
Even though I work from home, I’m still responsible for taking the kids to their medical appts, driving them to swim lessons, supervising homework, filling out paperwork (he actually told the teacher, “That’s her job.”), the list goes on . . . .
But there I go doing exactly what you said not to do. It’s difficult NOT to complain to someone when you feel you’re doing 85% of the parenting and trying to work at the same time.
I second Maria’s suggestion. Share tips on how dads (and moms) can be more immersed.
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Backpacking Dad Reply:
September 11th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
It’s complicated. It’s as complicated as adjusting the traditional workplace to the inclusion of women. And I feel very strongly that men ought to want to be more immersed. And yeah, some guys are just not doing enough for anyone’s peace of mind. But I feel just as strongly that encouraging a culture of cynicism and criticism and hopelessness about male participation is not going to do any good. It might make mothers in uncomfortable situations feel better about their situations, but it does nothing to change the situation.
I know it’s asking a lot of someone to give up doing what makes them feel good when they are faced with personal troubles. But it is also a lot to ask someone to change their behaviours, to stifle their outpourings, in the workplace to accommodate a group that had not previously been part of it. That is, it’s a lot to ask, but it has been asked, and it isn’t hopeless to do so.
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It’s sad but true.
My husband is the stay at home parent. It took a looonnggg time for my “traditional” family to come around to the notion that the female in the relationship can be the breadwinner, and the male staying at home doesn’t mean he isn’t supporting his family. Ha! Staying at home means so much more as far as supporting a family is concerned, in my book. This is just the way things worked out for us.
It also bugs me when I read, on baby product descriptions for example, “to make life easier for mom” or the like. Grr. What about Dada??
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Laura V Reply:
September 13th, 2009 at 9:46 am
A friend of ours went through the packaging on baby gifts she gave us and crossed out “Mom” everywhere — and wrote “parents” in, instead. We appreciated it!
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I think I’ve figured out what it is about this post that has been bothering me. It’s not the content as I agree wholeheartedly and have been lucky enough to be blessed with a husband who is very involved with his children. One thing I don’t do on my blog is make fun of his parenting skills (that I can remember, anyway!) because I have a lot of respect for him.
What bothers me is the idea that you are suggesting to us all that we censor ourselves and our writing. Many of us write about our own life experiences. We write what we feel, the things that have happened in our day, about whatever issue happens to be pressing on our brains that day. There is a lot of self-deprecating humor in mine and I lovingly make fun of my husband occasionally as well. It’s my prerogative. The reason why I’m feeling unsettled by this post is the tone. There’s a voice in the back of my head saying, “what about my freedom of expression?” As a writer, a person, I don’t want to be told what is appropriate for me to write about and I don’t want to sensor my creativity – the tone of honesty on my blog.
So, while I agree with the concept and ideas behind your essay, and while I wholeheartedly agree that “fathers are parents”, I think you’re overstepping a bit when you turn your platform into an attempt to guilt people into editing the content they publish on their blogs.
Anyway, I will step back from this now as I truly do agree with everything else you’ve said. I hope that this post speaks to the people it needs to. And I will, of course, continue to read and enjoy your blog.
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Backpacking Dad Reply:
September 11th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Hi Lynn,
I was definitely aware of the possibility that someone would feel I was telling them, inappropriately, to censor themselves; I ask the very same question about our “genuine feelings”. I hope I’ve answered that concern. I actually agree that what I’m doing is asking people to censor themselves. In particular, I’m asking feminist women to censor themselves insofar as they consider themselves feminist, sharing of a goal, which goal is actually undermined by their causual self-expression. And I draw a parallel with men in the workplace who are chumming around, laughing at the new girl trying to do “man’s work”. It’s less “you shouldn’t be allowed to say what you want to say” and more “if you consider yourself to be what you say you are, and to want what you say you want, then you should do stop doing this thing that is contradictory to your goals.” I think I tread a very narrow line, but hope I didn’t step over onto the side of “guilting”. I’m trying to provide arguments here, not guilt.
The ideas here are going to rankle us, because we don’t like being told what to do, what is right, what is appropriate. I’m sure as hell it rankled men to find out they had to stop making remarks about their new female co-workers that we, by and large, now consider completely inappropriate. In fact, those comments, in a workplace, are considered so inappropriate that they are grounds for successful lawsuits citing “hostile work environment.” Yes, it is censorship, in a way. I’m not sure that that makes it wrong.
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Fantastic post! Yes, yes, yes! And, by the way, even us parents who aspire to truly share parenting/breadwinning/housework/recreation about equally don’t do so simply to check off the box that we’re ‘equal’…we do so because it feels right. It makes our co-immersion legitimate on an everyday level and gives us both balanced lives. In a world where so much subtlely (or not so subtlely) sways couples toward tradition rather than feminist equality, we find it simply makes sense to be conscious about keeping our equality real. And no complicated scheme is necessary!
My very best,
Amy (equallysharedparenting.com)
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Nicely done.
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I enjoyed the post and I strongly agree with the content. But like Lynn, something didn’t feel right.
I’m not a stay at home dad but I’m a very involved first time parent. My wife makes double my salary so I quit swinging the big dick around long ago, so to speak. I agree that women need to stop looking at stay at home dads (and involved fathers in general) like they’re derelicts and, vice versa, women shouldn’t be looked down upon in the work place.
But I think you go too far in asking people not to write about their embarrassing/humiliating/hilarious parenting experiences.
I’m a good dad. I’m confident in that fact. But I’m also a first-time dad and sometimes I make mistakes, just as my wife did. If she writes about me putting my kid’s shoes on the wrong feet or balking at the idea of taking my son’s temperature rectally, there’s nothing wrong with that. Sure some people can take their criticisms too far, but that’s life. To start to censor ourselves for fear that we’ll scare off some reticent parents is a little silly.
And frankly, I watch Raymond and King of Queens and I think they’re really funny. Sure they perpetuate a stereotype but it’s television. You’re not going to change that. It’s fiction and people know it’s fake. I honestly think too much emphasis is put on the media shaping our opinions and not enough credit is given to the masses that they can make their own decisions.
But thank you for putting all of this out there and opening up a dialogue. I think that may be the most important thing of all.
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Backpacking Dad Reply:
September 12th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
“To start to censor ourselves for fear that we’ll scare off some reticent parents is a little silly.”
This sentence makes it seem like you think the job is mostly done already: that there is overall parity and gender equality and that really there’s only a little cleanup work to be done now. The heavy lifting is all over.
Again, imagine the parallel. Imagine the situation 30 years ago, and the men in the workplace insisting that it was a little silly to ask them to censor themselves for fear of scaring off some of the more timid women who were considering entering the workforce.
I don’t think it’s silly at all.
As far as the media goes, I don’t agree at all that people know Everybody Loves Raymond and King of Queens are fictional in the way that matters. Your statement again seems to imply that all of the heavy lifting is done, and that television images are impotent in shaping cultural opinions about fathers. That is utterly false. Although this post isn’t about media (it’s about feminism) I think acceptance of men as parents has not been achieved so long as shows like Everybody Loves Raymond are as popular as they are. Because those shows are both influenced by prevailing cultural themes and shape those themes.
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Suppose in that workplace, the “new girl doing a man’s job” isn’t making a good faith effort to learn the job, and do it well and independently. Suppose she actually creates extra work for her male coworkers who have to help her as well as do their own jobs. Perhaps this goes beyond a normal learning curve and after a reasonable amount of time she’s not assuming the responsibilities for herself? Perhaps she shows no awareness that she’s doing less than what her job calls for and is imposing on others, or certainly no apology?
I think sometimes it is frustration at a less than good-faith effort that inspires some of the bitterness of some of the posts written in the momblogs, not misanthropy.
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Backpacking Dad Reply:
September 12th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
I called it misandry because of what it is, not because of what motivates it. Of course it’s entirely understandable that people want to moan and complain about people they think are doing something wrong. As I said in the post, these are genuine feelings. They are, often, legitimate feelings. But feminists cannot afford to forget what the goal is, or they’ll get in their own way.
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excavator Reply:
September 13th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
Eek! Corrected I stand at the distinction between ‘misandry’ and ‘misanthropy’. (Hey! Spellchecker highlights ‘misandry’, but not ‘misanthropy’)
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It’s a really though-provoking, well-written post. I enjoyed reading every word and I agree with much of it. But, you know the areas of discussion are more fun, soooooo:
I agree with Excavator and that comment echos some of my thoughts. If you want to use the women in the work place analogy (which works), women are certainly not exempt from criticism or standards in the working world (nor should they be). If anything, we’ve had to work harder, be better, appear smarter than men in order to “prove” our ability to match and, in some cases, better our male counterparts. This is especially true in male-dominated fields. I don’t think men should be exempt from valid criticism in parenting because we want to encourage men to parent any more than a woman should not be told if she screws something up at her job. The partners I worked for at a law firm certainly didn’t hesitate to let me know when my briefs weren’t up to their standard and they didn’t hesitate to compare me to my male or female co-associates.
In the blog world, I your point, and your request, depend on the spirit of the writing. If the point is to humiliate and degrade, then yes, I agree. A Dad trying to parent who is being constantly mocked for his newbie mistakes or different approach isn’t going to want to parent for long. If the intent of the writing mom is to show how much better she is or to vent bitterness/guilt, I can see taking a breath and letting Dad do it his way, without mocking. On the other hand, if the blog is equal in it’s poking fun, if the woman writes about her own parenting guffaws as well, if they have a good partnership that allows for back and forth poking with a pen, well so be it.
And, if a Dad or a Mom is just not trying, is not making an effort for whatever reason, like oh, I can let them sit in that all day because the other partner will deal with it when they get here, for a trite example, then they kind of deserve their negative work review, no?
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Backpacking Dad Reply:
September 12th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Criticism, delivered to the person who needs to benefit from it is one thing. Your partners not hesitating to let you know you’d done something wrong is competely proper. Those same partners gathering together at a not-so-secret locale to toss their hands in the air at the incompetence they’ve come to expect from you, and has anyone else noticed this trait with women, is entirely inappropriate. The blog world is that not-so-secret locale.
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Backpacking Dad Reply:
September 12th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Also, we cannot take this on a case by case basis. The anti-dad culture doesn’t get eradicated by a case-by-case examination of the intent of the writing, of the commiserating. Good-natured ribbing about women in the workplace are not tolerated either, because it is not the intent that matters in questions of hostile work environment.
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It doesn’t sound to me that “you go too far in asking people not to write about their embarrassing/humiliating/hilarious parenting experiences.” I believe what you’re proffering is the realization that emotional pettiness (strong word, I know) often stands in the way of our goals, and that includes the admirable goal of building a successful, two-partner parenting team. You’re packaging this realization specifically to speak to feminist mothers, but the application of this realization can be much broader.
Ultimately, what’s more important to each of us: venting frustrations in order to personally feel better or supporting your partner as s/he develops new skillsets? The writing/blogging bit is just window dressing and this concern of self-censored publishing is, in my opinion, too self-centric to be useful.
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Good post. I read it aloud to my husband last night, who is very much an immersed parent to Short Stuff – immersed to the degree that I’ve sometimes had to gently remind him that I have two much older kids and remember a few tricks.
My first husband was not involved and not a partner and I share the culpability there for choosing poorly. This time around my 2nd husband and I have our struggles like any couple, but he takes fatherhood very very seriously.
Time does change viewpoints and attitudes eventually, and the idea of fathers being fully equal as hands-on parents will undoubtedly be fully accepted by the time your daughter is starting her family.
I was going to say something about the women in the workplace comparison but I can’t think clearly today.
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I’ve been thinking a lot about this post since I commented, and I fear I painted my husband in the wrong light. He is very much an immersed parent when it comes to the “fun stuff,” and my children often prefer to be with him because he is a lot more playful.
However, we seem to have settled in a rut where he gets to be their playmate and I’m the one to meet their physical needs. And perhaps I’ve, over time, allowed that to happen.
Maybe he should make sure I have time to really play with our three kids, instead of me constantly worrying about what needs to be done next, and I should make sure he knows how to do some of the nitty-gritty parenting stuff.
And while I might censor myself online (I don’t think I’ve ever written anything to degrade or humiliate my husband anyway) that doesn’t mean I won’t confide in my girlfriends when I’m upset with my husband.
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I commented on your cross post over at BlogHer. I understand why some people are taking issue with the “don’t tell me what I can/can’t write” angle, but my biggest problem is that Immersed Parenting sounds like a code for “Well-Intentioned Do-Nothing.” I explain myself here: http://www.blogher.com/feminism-and-immersed-parent#comment-125155
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Stefania – you summed up *exactly* how I feel. My husband is an excellent dad, and yet his head isn’t filled to the brim with every little detail surrounding our kids’ health and well-being, as is mine. And this is something we’ve talked about many times before!
I feel I *have* to vent to a friend privately from time to time . . . and I’d wager many women feel the same way. Consider it a pressure valve to let off a little steam so I can talk to him in a more calm and reasonable tone. My husband and I rarely argue for having been married 10 years. Why? Because we have a solid marriage, for one thing, and also because I have a few friends who can talk me down when I desperately need it.
I agree and appreciate the overall gist of this post, but I think Stefania made a great point in differentiating between an immersed parent and one who is truly aware of everything that is involved in the behind-the-scenes activities.
And I think that’s why so many women can identify with “Everybody Loves Raymond.” No one questions Ray’s love for his children or that he’s a good, immersed dad. But sometimes he just doesn’t get it.
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Backpacking Dad Reply:
September 12th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Ray is absolutely NOT an immersed dad. I despise the image of husbands that show contributes to.
There are two points here: One, what the hell do I mean by “Immersed Father”, because doesn’t it seem like I’m just spelling out “lazy doufus who feels good about his kids”? The second is “Why should women stop writing things about their husbands that make them out to be lazy doufuses if it’s totally true?”
To the first, I haven’t spelled out Immersed Parent in any detail here, and I completely accept Stefania’s worry that all I’ve done is become an apologist for uninvolved parents. That paragraph could become a book, and it’s sole point was to introduce a concept with some bare parameters that don’t make it seem a terrifying or overwhelming thing for fathers to contemplate doing. Being a parent is easy. It’s just constant. When you are immersed you are surrounded, so it’s easy to pay attention to what is surrounding you.
To the second point, why you ought to stop: We need to weigh impact that kind of venting has on the culture. It creates shows like Everybody Loves Raymond. It makes them successful! Because so many women feel the same way. And then what? So many men will refuse to dip a toe in the water because it is assumed they don’t know a damned thing and that they’ll be incompetent and that they will face the kind of ridicule everyone directs at Raymond as a father. He’s not a role model. He’s a voodoo doll.
The parallel has to be kept in mind: It’s not okay for men in the workplace to say “But look, it’s just true that this woman can’t do math. What’s wrong with me telling everyone she can’t do math? What’s wrong with me telling everyone that she has no head for business? What’s wrong with just saying how I feel?” The problem is the culture that permits.
And unless there’s a reason to think that the kind of public humiliating that goes on with that venting actually makes any dad more involved, to a degree that it ISN’T working exactly at cross-purposes to the gender equality goal, then I don’t think it should happen. I don’t care if it’s just blowing off steam. Men aren’t excused for just blowing off steam if it also creates a hostile work environment.
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Okay. Yes, I concede using Ray as an example was a lousy one.
I also get your workplace analogy, and I am not condoning public ridicule of dads to the extent it makes them want to be less of a parent. In fact, I feel quite as you do!
However, I also feel as though you are telling women they can’t vent to a friend in the privacy of their own homes. I wouldn’t stand in my place of work blowing off steam around the water cooler, but I believe it is in my right to do that over a cup of tea with a friend in my own kitchen. Also, I would be naive to think my husband has no complaints about me as a wife and mother and that he doesn’t relate them to his ‘buddies’ from time to time. In fact, my husband belongs to a forum in which I’ve read countless instances of ribbing on the guys’ wives and girlfriends. Am I offended? No, because I understand the intended tone.
Alright. I’m bowing out of this one. You’ve written a very good and obviously thought-provoking post.
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Backpacking Dad Reply:
September 12th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Okay, you’ve made me have to think really hard about this :}
The point about not complaining to your girlfriends is this:
Your girlfriends are my co-workers.
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Backpacking Dad Reply:
September 12th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
;} Nah. I’ve just done a lot of thinking about this.
And your girlfriends are my co-workers, especially right now when most of the heavy duty parenting is done by moms. You privately venting to your girlfriends, to blow off steam, is also you venting to my co-workers about someone like me. So, when I finally do transfer offices (I’m abusing this metaphor a bit) and meet them for the first time I’m going to have to do all kinds of work against a stereotype before I get to be considered an equal. It’s that kind of stuff that happens in the work environment that still rankles feminists, and it shouldn’t be happening in the parallel environment either.
Like I said, even in the post itself, I know it’s hard. And there are all kinds of reasons we’d think it’s okay to do it. Or just to do it about my husband. Or just to do it good-naturedly. Or just to do it if we’re also going to have a direct conversation with him about it. I just think the reasons against matter more.
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Okay, now you’ve just gone off the deep end.
Seriously, dude. Were you captain of the debate team or something?
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Shawn I think you said a lot of good stuff in this post but feminism is the belief that women are entitled to the same opportunities, choices, and respect as any other person alive, period. Don’t mix metaphors, especially not with a concept like feminism. Also, you already know I think this sorta reeked of “be grateful for getting anything at all to eat, even if it’s shit, and don’t complain or it’ll be your fault you go hungry.” Some dads ARE entirely incompetent assholes. So are some moms for that matter. And the moment you propose that anyone ought to shut up about their co-parent being an incompetent asshole you lose me.
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Backpacking Dad Reply:
September 12th, 2009 at 11:19 pm
Can you get gender equality while also encouraging, promoting, or lauding the contributions to a sub-culture that discriminates against men? That discourages men from getting the other perspective?
I know it’s personal. That doesn’t make it acceptable. So what is it that makes it acceptable, in light of the goal of gender equality?
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I like your ideas in this post. But then again, I would–my husband was raised by feral lesbians in college (he minored in women’s studies, as did I).
I might quibble with your definition of feminsm a bit (isn’t it at least as much about dismantling male privilege/patriarchy as it is about ensuring women’s potential is nurtured to its fullest expression?), but I like the concept of the Immersed Parent. Although, wouldn’t it be more accurate to engender this and say you are an Immersed Father?
I never make fun of my spouse’s daddying, although we have certain philosophical approaches we share and I’m generally seen as the leader who defines things on that front. It’s a role I’m happy with because that’s how I get my feminist-mom-of-a-son ya-yas out. And while I tend to be more attuned to the intangible parts of our son’s temperament and growth, with chitchat we catch each other up on if the kid no longer eats anchovies, if we need to let him make more decisions in things, or what karate studio to start him at, etc.
Plus, and I do mean this seriously, I’m enormously grateful there’s someone to explain the DC vs Marvel superhero pantheons, the finer points of Star Wars vs Star Trek mythologies, who would win if Gidra took on Mothra, and infinite other things my girly brain just can’t quite manage to give a crap about. But all of which seems essential small-boy knowledge on the playground.
One thing I’m fascinated by is how feminism is very different when you’re co-parenting a son as opposed to a daughter. The stakes, the imposition of gender roles and resistance to them, the nuances of human qualities that get viewed through a gendered lens and how we struggle to refocus those lenses so compassion, ambition, nurturing, and responsibility for one’s own emotions become human again and not the province of one gender or the other…all those things are a different battle than when you’re raising a daughter.
Next step: for huz who cooks to teach son to cook. Good thing I taught huz to cook, eh?
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Backpacking Dad Reply:
September 13th, 2009 at 12:41 am
It’s a gift that keeps on giving.
As for the definition of feminism re: dismantling male privilege/patriarchy, To what purpose? Why dismantle? Not just for the hell of it. To ensure the equality that rationality demands of us. There are lots of moving parts in feminism, but the goal is equality.
Well, maybe more fairly, the goal is equality of a very high standard. Nobody is really shooting for equally bad situations where everyone is equal but loses both their arms or something.
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The most mind-blowing, shut your gob thing to say in repsonse to this post, by the way is:
“If you are a feminist, and you are pushing for an end to the use of language in a particular fashion that works at cross-purposes to the goal of gender equality that you say you have, then why are you yourself using language in such a way to continue to perpetuate the gender inequality between men and women by subordinating women to the will of men?”
It’s mind-blowing.
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Hey, I reckon fair post. I agree with your intentions here wholeheartedly, kudos for opening the can!
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Delurking here to share an anecdote (although I did respond in exactly 140 characters on twitter). I am a law professor and a practicing lawyer with a large national firm. I also have 3 young children. Friday, I was working out of a firm office in another city in part because on Saturday I needed to attend a conference in that same city. I have no doubt that the managing shareholder of that office respects me as an attorney – we’ve worked together and put on presentations together. He is also a very nice guy. When he found out I was in the office for the day, he made a point to leave his corner office and come by to see me.
At one point in the conversation, he asked me how my husband would handle being home all weekend all by himself with all three kids. ?! Then this very nice partner said, I bet when you get home, your husband will say, “I don’t know how you do it.”
Now, how do I take this? He truly believes I am superhuman and practice law, teach law students and raise 3 children all by myself? AND normally, I’m the ONE who takes care of the kids alone? If so, when does he think I work? Or, he just can’t conjure up a father who can parent all by himself — for TWO whole days?
What gets me is that, because of the bias that I am the one who is really responsible for the kids, when my husband does anything at all, he is lauded as an involved parent. But, if I don’t make and deliver homemade organic snacks for the day my 2d grader is responsible for the class snack, I am somehow less of a parent. Hell, if my husband even shows up at the school, he is going above and beyond. What it boils down to is that I am held to a higher standard at work (because I’m a woman and a mother in a field where men with children earn more money than their single peers while women with children earn less so I have to prove myself even more) and a higher standard as a parent (because I’m the MOM).
So, now I’m a bit conflicted because I agree with your underlying premise, but blaming the women who have the “nerve” to write publicly about their husband’s inability (lack of iniative) to change a diaper, is a bit simplistic. And puts the onus for societal change, unfairly I believe, back onto women.
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Backpacking Dad Reply:
September 13th, 2009 at 8:17 am
It’s not about onus. This post isn’t about identifying the one and only, or even the most severe, cause of the culture of the Buffoon. It is about identifying one, and one that bloggers will be very familiar with.
The culture of the Buffoon guarantees that very little will be expected from men. The inequality it ushers in is not just that men will be expected to be incompetent, but that women will be supremely competent, and unfairly held to a standard they cannot fall from unless they are willing to take being considered a bad mom. It’s all part of the package of inequality.
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I t took me almost an hour to read this post and all the comments because my husband, who is off work and home today, is upstairs in his office doing who-knows-what (not work, even he would admit that) while my children constantly interrupted me. My husband is very immersed parent in my opinion but he can also be an insensitive ass sometimes. Often it is very difficult to separate when his insensitivity towards me is just towards me and when it relates to the children.
I really loved this post and I agree with everything up to the “please don’t write about this” request. I understand the reason for the request and I agree that some of our writings might be problematic for The Cause. I just don’t think censorship or leaving out a entire segment of many women’s lives is the answer. Especially in the arena of parent blogging which is such an important space for so many women and mothers. Our blogs are often the only outlet we have for these feelings and interfering with our ability to reach out and connect with other people in the same situation does more harm than good in my opinion.
I like the workplace analogy but I do not think it’s entirely appropriate in this case. And I agree with anymommy that context is important. I do tell stories about my husband on my blog and I might even laugh at how he deals with parenting situations. But I make more fun of myself than anyone else in my writing.
Those lawyers who gathered at the not-so-secret-location to make fun of their female co-worker – are they being shitty? Yes. Can we stop them? Of course not. Do they have the right to complain and act like assholes? They sure do.
I’m not sure what my point is. If I come up with one I will come back and post it. Until then… well, those are my random thoughts.
:crawling back under rock:
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Backpacking Dad Reply:
September 13th, 2009 at 9:57 am
If the lawyers don’t have the right to say what they want. The firm will get sued for hostile work environment because we’ve decided that it’s illegal to foster those kinds of conversations if their effect permeates the workplace, even if no woman is in the room to hear the actual conversation.
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Redneck Mommy sent me over here to “slap” you, and I am afraid, after reading this post, I can’t.
I agree with *almost* all you have said here. For years, it has bothered me that men get the raw end of the deal when it comes to parenting. It is assumed (even with the “ignore the biological gender differences” front) that women are more cut out for parenting. That men are parenting idiots. It isn’t fair. My husband can hold his own and then some. Men don’t do it wrong, men do it different, which is EXACTLY what kids need. Sure, there are times when it might appear to a mom that a dad is lacking sense. So what? There are just as many times a dad lacks sense, so does a mom. We can point the fingers at ourselves as much as at our spouse (how is that for kicking up some dust?) It is all about onus.
I think a good example of an Immersed Parent in popular culture is Michael Kyle (Damon Wayne’s) character from My Wife and Kids.
Now, let me kick up some real dust. Feminism needs to be redefined. I am a feminist. There are no real irrelevant biological differences. Men and women are different, and we should embrace that. End of story. We have different things to bring to the dining room table AND the board room table. When we talk about equality, we need not dismiss the fact that we are different. Saying that women want equality but we also cling to traditional gender roles misses the point. (Watch out, I think I might just piss some women off). Women need to face the fact that asking for maintaining traditional gender role (such as breastfeeding, time for pumping, etc) is NOT asking for equality. Men cannot do what we biologically can and NEED to do, so it cannot be equal. That DOES NOT mean that I do not think that women deserve and should demand that, and more. It just isn’t equality. And this is where we need to embrace the fact that biological difference matter, and need to embrace that.
Equality is meaning that you do not assume something about my intellect because I am a woman. It means that I get paid equally for an equal job. It means that I get taken seriously even though I DO have a different process than a man.
Equality means that I have a seat at the board table AND men have a seat at the dining room table.
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Backpacking Dad Reply:
September 13th, 2009 at 10:00 am
I’m not sure we disagree about anything. My expression “irrelevant biological differences” isn’t a casual one. I don’t mean by it “biological differences”. I mean irrelevant ones. And relevance will depend on the discussion they are being introduced in.
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Corina Reply:
September 13th, 2009 at 10:20 am
I don’t think that we disagree either. BUT, I KNOW that some women want to pretend that we don’t have difference….. and then point out the differences by demanding what they do.
I can actually go farther though, and say that men and women are intellectually different. Research shows that men and women use different parts of their brains for many tasks. It also shows that men and women DO in fact differ in areas such as the sciences, math, language, and social skills. It is the “innate” skill and predispostions where we differ.
This is where we deal with equality issues. We are different. A man actually is “innately” better at math than a woman, and women are “innately” better at language. We are born into inequality. HOWEVER, this does NOT mean that we need to honor these inequalities. Women and men should be given equal opportunity to excel at either. Just because we are innately different in our abilities, does not mean that we should not nurture and educate in things that we may not naturally excel. There is something to be said for hard work, honor, and education. Being a scientist, I can tell you that it did not come to me naturally. But I can compete just as well as a man due to a good education and a crap load of hard work. Yet, I still embrace that biological difference because my intellectual biological difference gives me a different perspective than a man, which, in collaboration, helps to solve problems in new and innovative ways. We must not fear the intellectual differences either. We just need our teachers to nurture and educate us regardless, and realize that men and women are going to need to work a little harder in order to compete.
I think I got way off topic. Sorry.
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Redneck Reply:
September 13th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
My reason for sending you over here to ’slap’ Shawn was not because I disagreed with the salient point of his argument. On the contrary, I quite agree with his line of reasoning.
The point that I take issue with is how self-centric his arguments are by asking all women to stop writing about what knuckleheads men can be in a domestic role.
And perhaps I bristle at a man wielding the term feminism (which by definition is the advocacy of WOMEN’s rights and WOMEN’s equality) and turning it into an argument for gender equality.
Especially since much of the inequality has been created and defined by the male sex through the course of history.
Like I said on twitter, while I agree with gender equality whole heartedly, the tone Shawn uses rather feels like being smacked in the face with a penis.
Not that I know what that feels like or anything. Ahem.
Laura V Reply:
September 13th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
A man actually is “innately” better at math than a woman, and women are “innately” better at language. We are born into inequality.
That’s…we don’t know that those differences are innate. We know that in people in the cultures in which we have studied this effect, it can be demonstrated in fairly young children.
But cultural indoctrination starts the minute one is born, and culture does affect the development of the brain. Women in the culture in which I was raised tend, on average, to be better at language than men. Female babies in the culture in which I was raised…get talked to more than male babies from the day they are born. This makes me suspect that we’re dealing with a cultural artifact, not an innate biological difference. Denying that it exists is silly, and denying that this cultural act results in a measurable biological phenomenon that has behavioral implications is silly, as well. But calling it innate is equally silly; we have no evidence for that.
Jeremy Stand Reply:
October 5th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Thank you Corina, though without disagreeing, I would modify your words somewhat, in that men and women have an innate predisposition for math, language – pick which is appropriate. This doesn’t necessarily mean that all men will be better at math, it just means that statistically, men will be better on average. And just so people don’t misinterpret what I am trying to say – I am better at math than my brother, and my wife is better than I am – there is a continuum here.
The really important point, though, which I thank you for, is that men and women are different. No matter who is better at what, there are biological and psychological differences in how we process information, react to stimulii, etc. These differences do not need to be limiting factors. Having multiple viewpoints and approaches to anything in life, parenting especially, is enriching, as long as you are open to it. What we all need to do is embrace the differences; biological, cultural, behavioral; so that our children have the greatest degree of flexibility in the way that they have learned to interact with the world.
For whatever reason, people get very skittish around acknowledging that *there are differences* between people – men and women, men and men, women and women. We are not all the same, and if we were, life would lose a great deal of it’s current richness. We need to learn to embrace difference.
It is a generalization to say that woman are “innately” better at math and women “innately” better at language, but scientifically the generalization stands when looking at large groups of people. There are actual neurological differences in men and women in the center of the brain that controls each. The number of synapses in each section of the brain is different. This can be observed as adults and in babies that are only a few months old with very little cultural indoctrination has influenced development. Current research suggests that hormone differences affect the cortex brain development in utereo, and these differences can be seen upon birth. I would point you to this article and studies for evidence.
http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/mente/eisntein/cerebro-homens.html
Now, that is not to say that culture exacerbates the differences. Sociologists have long documented the cultural influence on the differences. It has a great influence, and the fact that the science supports my claim, is actually a bit dangerous in this matter. Yes, cultural indoctrination can change thought process and therefore we can see changes in brain activity in certain areas of the brain. However, cultural cannot change brain matter density, nerve patterns, and size of areas of the brain which are observed differences between the sexes. This is why I called it innate. The proof is there when looking at the mass population.
I would also argue that when we are dealing with people we don’t look at the mass population, but we look at individuals. It is a simplification to say that one person is innately better at math or science than the next, surely. We need to deal with each person, differences, talents, and accomplishments.
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Tanis…..
I agree with your characterization of his tone. And, as long as men can sit around complaining about how long women take to get ready and why we need to shop and any other number of gross generalizations on the part of women, it may be all fair game. After all, many times it is just ranting lunacy (or at least in my case). However, I also think that if women want men to play fair, we need to play fair too.
Shawn using feminism does not bother me. He knows what he is doing, using the term to get under our skins and then, somehow, end up making his point for him. He is smart, that Shawn.
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Thank-you for this post.
Since becoming a mother it has become painfully apparent to me that the progress that has been made in opening up opportunities for women in formerly male realms hasn’t been matched by new opportunities for men in the domestic sphere.
In theory it should be easy to increase men’s access to women’s ‘domain’. Feminists have 30+ years of experience in analyzing institutional barriers to inclusion, how we rationalize and reinforce stereotypes among our friends and in society at large and even how hurtful ‘just a joke’ can be.
So all we have to do is turn those tools back on ourselves and ask ‘how am I sabotaging what I claim to believe?’ Easier said than done.
Some commenters have taken issues with your notion of the ‘involved parent’. I humbly suggest that the concept is as important to mothers as it is for fathers. In order to hand-off some of the managerial responsibilities of parenting (not only when Drs. appointments are but which ones still need to be made), mothers have to accept that a good mother. just like a good father “doesn’t have to know every detail of his[her] child’s day, but will consider that day important to the active development of the child”
It can take real effort to let go of this demand for supremacy, to trust that our partner is doing the right thing, even when it’s not what we would have done. But that is (as I see it) the challenge for feminist mothers: you can’t be equal and always be right.
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I don’t get bent out of shape by women writing about men being inept at taking care of the kids. It really doesn’t phase me. I don’t spend much time worrying about whether society gives us credit because I just don’t have time.
The only person who matters is my wife. It is our family, our relationship. As long as the two of us are happy with how things go it is all good.
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Speaking as a full-time single father of a seven-year-old daughter, I have to say this is a damn fine post. I’ve had to endure more than my fair share of odd reactions in the workplace, at school, and from people around town. Why? Because I got the kid. Dad’s are never the primary parent, right? It’s truly infuriating…
Good stuff.
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Great post. I certainly understand your point of view. It serves a better purpose to turn the negative comments towards the father role into a positive.
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Interesting post. Glad to know what you & Tanis were tweeting about the other night! ;p
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My husband is a SAHD. I would NEVER in a million years ridicule him on my blog…even if he was the one working and I was staying at home.
I went to a session at BlogHer where the speakers said they had every right to say whatever they thought about their husband, kids, everything.
I disagree.
The words we write will come back to haunt us. Whoever they relate to. There is a fine line you cannot cross.
Mother’s should not speak ill of their husbands, nor should husbands speak ill of their wives in a public forum. Parenting is a joint venture like it or not. And no one should talk smack about their kids….EVER. Light funny stories? Great. Harsh words? Never. We should never forget that every person we write about may possibly read our posts years from now. And we should always think about how much it would sting if we were to read harsh words about ourselves.
Well done.
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Corinna, those actual brain differences in adults are not there as infants. People unconsciously treat male and female babies differently and interact with them differently; those interactions shape the way the brain develops. There’s an article on Newseek online about this – http://www.newsweek.com/id/214834
The article talks about a book and research of neroscientist Lise Eliot who has looked at this issue.
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A relevant quote from the article about supposed differences in the center of the brain —
“For her new book, Pink Brain, Blue Brain: How Small Differences Grow Into Troublesome Gaps—And What We Can Do About It, Eliot immersed herself in hundreds of scientific papers (her bibliography runs 46 pages). Marching through the claims like Sherman through Georgia, she explains that assertions of innate sex differences in the brain are either “blatantly false,” “cherry-picked from single studies,” or “extrapolated from rodent research” without being confirmed in people. For instance, the idea that the band of fibers connecting the right and left brain is larger in women, supposedly supporting their more “holistic” thinking, is based on a single 1982 study of only 14 brains. Fifty other studies, taken together, found no such sex difference—not in adults, not in newborns.”
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After some reflection, I think I need to take umbrage at your assertion that feminism strives towards rationality.
The issue with bigotry in all forms — sexism included — is not in the rational portion of human thought , but rather the irrational. The instantaneous decision-making that governs our first impressions, and forms unconscious decisions based on preconceptions that our rational minds may reject.
Human beings are equipped with an irrational decision making process in their subconscious. It forms opinions and makes decisions, often without input from rational thought. If feminism’s goal is to eliminate this, and instill rationality in its place, feminism is futile — it needs to wait for millions of years of evolution, and keep its fingers crossed that equality is a sufficiently advantageous survival/procreation mechanism.
However, if feminism’s goal is not rationality, but equality — to tear down the structures and preconceptions within our society that cause this subconscious inequality, and replace it with something that allows our gut instinct to behave in a manner resembling what we see it should be upon rational reflection, then it has a chance.
To define feminism in terms of rational reasoning is to doom it to failure. Eliminating bigotry requires the targeting of that part of us that judges irrationally, in the subconscious. These prejudiced decisions, while subject to rationalisation, are biologically incapable of being rational themselves.
Depending on rational thought prevailing is to ignore the root of inequality and bigotry — the instinctive nature of human decision making. I feel that some of your arguments lose sight of the fact that human beings will never be strictly rational creatures.
Because of this, we will always be informed by our biases. Movements such as feminism are about blunting or eliminating the forces within our culture that cause these biases where they are unwarranted. They are not — or should not — be attempting to circumvent the means by which neurons happen to fire in the human brain.
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Backpacking Dad Reply:
September 17th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Well, there’s three problems in what you’ve said. One is, logically, a false dichotomy. Another is argumentatively a straw-man. And the third is offering an interpretation of the goal of feminism that no one reasonably wants or expects from it.
First, to the false dichotomy: Either “feminism pursues rationality” means “ignoring irrational subconscious impulses and brain states” or feminism’s goal must be equality, not rationality.
I say it’s a false dichotomy because there is definitely an obvious third option, which is agreeing with you that the problem is irrational subconscious impulses and brain states, but that the solution to the problems raised by those subconscious impulses and brain states is not itself a change in subconscious impulses and brain states. The problems of structual inequality, political inequality, economic inequality, and social inequality might very well be caused by subconscious, irrational impulses and brain states. But none of those problems are internal attitudes. While feminists might be completely happy to live in a world where no one felt sexist feelings, I don’t think they are trying to bring about that world. I think the world they are trying to bring about is a public world of rational equality, where the structures are designed rationally to overcome whatever linering subconscious sexism might exist in private individuals.
The straw-man is, naturally, attributing to me (or my version of feminism) the goal of turning everyone into rational little machines, and pointing out that it is hopeless. It is hopeless. It’s also not the goal.
As for the option you’ve offered, that feminism’s real goal is a kind of internal equality, targeting for elimination those brain states that give rise to inequality: that is exactly the danger with viewing feminism as having equality as it’s goal. There are lots and lots and lots of worlds in which everyone is equal and no one would ever want to live there. Ascribing to feminism the bare goal of equality without it being rationally motivated and defended is to doom it to absurdity or even evil. Soma holidays, brain-washing, sexual equality guaranteed by naked force…those are all options if we take rationality away as the goal. Maybe there’s a lucky world in which all of the dangers of equality-at-any-cost are eliminated and everyone is also equal. I have no idea how to create that one, and I don’t think anyone else does either. Feminism can’t be just shooting in the dark, hoping that we end up in that one.
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[...] over at Backpacking Dad had a really thought-provoking post dealing with immersed parents, feminism and one of his solutions to the problem. Among other [...]
[...] the most eloquent writing about feminism springs from the minds of men. Backpackingdad hits the nail on the head with this one. He speaks about striving for true gender equality [...]
Oh, BackPacking Dad – how in the world have I not been reading you before now? Of course, I’ve seen your name around, but never did I visit your blog. Silly me.
This is one of soundest and most complete arguments for EQUAL parenting I’ve heard in a long time. My husband would be proud of you. I try my hardest not to complain about any of my husband’s shortcomings as a parent because A.) he has so few – he prides himself on being a fully involved father – and B.) I don’t want to sound like I think it’s okay to be married to that type of dude.
The timing on this is funny – I just started a two part series about Dads & Feminism tonight. I found your post when I was researching the subject.
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This was very well written. I take exception to only one thing: your use of feminism. (I wonder how many people just stopped reading?)
Now, you may have used the term specifically to incite discussion (well done), but we need to do more than just redefine the word. Feminism has a long history of meaning, even a changing one, but to overcome the historical (and still existing) professional and educational disparity between men and women, it needed to tear apart patriarchal assumptions while building up women’s abilities. Let us not take that away from the term (on top of which, some people will get hung up on semantics and ignore the real point). As a white male, while it frustrates me that affirmative action seems to protect every group by my own, I also understand that it was and is still important.
It is also important to move beyond. What you, Backpacking Dad, seem to be, is a humanist (I know I just complained about people arguing semantics and that’s what I am doing, I know). Someone who is arguing for the equitable (not equal) contribution of both parents – not that they both do identical things, but that both have equally important roles to play.
Feminists, by necessity, had to tear down as they built up. Fathers (ignoring other potential situations where men get the short end of the stick, there may be a debate there that I want no part of at the moment), as you said, need to assert their willingness and their interest in being parents far more publicly and stridently than we have before. We don’t need to tear down a mother’s role to do that.
The goal (well, my goal anyway, I am projecting the rest) is that we get to the point where no one thinks of “father” as being synonymous with “sperm doner.” Some men are like that, but I think that disqualifies them from being fathers. When we get to the point that both parents are acknowledged for being parents and having something to contribute to the process, we will be in a good place.
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What an excellent post! Well written, well argued, and well delivered. It was so interesting to read your perspective, and to think about how gender roles have been so challenged in the last few years. I love it!
It is, unfortunately, sometimes difficult to put thoughts like this into practice, especially when you are operating in a traditional marriage situation. My husband is a physician who works oodles of hours a week and I am a stay-at-home mom (I was working on a Ph.D. but put that on hold to take care of my son). Even in spite of how much my husband works, he always does his best to pitch in at home and take care of our son as much as he can. And it’s hard. I think that having a baby changes the dynamic of a relationship. and it teaches you things about yourself and your partner that you weren’t prepared to learn, so sometimes it’s difficult to avoid falling into the standard “dad bashing” or “mom bashing”, or however it goes. Add to that the fact that, just as you pointed out, it is socially acceptable for women to complain about their husbands (you should read the article from Parenting titled “Mad at Dad” @ http://www.parenting.com/article/Mom/Relationships/Mad-at-Dad) and it makes it really hard.
I also wanted to mention that, just like you said that women look down their noses at stay-at-home dads, there is sort of the same reaction to stay-at-home moms…FROM OTHER MOMS! I think when it comes down to it, we should just stop trying to put a title on the mentality that we all are equal (i.e. “feminism”), and just start respecting each other’s personal decisions in life. I applaud your heroism in the home, and your wife’s as well, for accepting and allowing the changes to happen.
Three cheers for your family!
M
http://Mandthe2Henrys.blogspot.com
http://HomemakerPhD.blogspot.com
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Hi – I recently started reading your blog, and am enjoying it. Thanks for this post, just as I was starting to feel put upon by my husband. We need more immersed parenting, and more people like you to write about it.
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I’m the mom, I’m the breadwinner. I’m also the person who’d rather rake the leave and check the christmas lights than clean the bathroom and do the laundry. Lucky for me My husband is more domestic in that regard. My kids don’t go to daycare because I stay home during the day and work in the evenings and my husband stays home at night and works during the day. we “tag-team” parent and it works for us and for our kids. they get the best of us both and get equal time. Sometimes it’s rough because we have to be in constant communication to stay on the same page and I have on numerous occasions defended my husband and his parenting. I’m lucky I can go to work at 3pm and know…KNOW that my kids will be looked after as if i was there doing it myself. I have complete confidence in him. My aunt has on more than one occasion made a comment about him “babysitting” the kids and he was the one who stepped up and said they are his kids and he parents them the same as I do. Although she comes from the generation where mom stayed home, her mother worked and Dad (my grandfather) stayed home.
Sometimes though, our spouses parenting techniques just annoy us and writing about helps. If I didn’t vent about it some days my head would blow up. If he reads well too bad for him. But on the same note, he complains some times about my parenting techniques and it’s hard to take it but I do and we move on. It doesn’t change the fact that he’s a great dad – and immersed father.
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Echoing all these other comments, FANTASTIC post. Thanks.
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I was pointed to this post by an article at Blissfully Domestic, and I’m so glad I took the time to read your post in its entirety. I LOVE your new definition of feminism.
It’s so disheartening to me that we (men and women) are still so quick to insult one another’s abilities (or what we perceive to be a lack thereof). I loved the parallel that you drew between women insulting men’s parenting skills and the lack of respect for women in the workplace. Such a double standard, on both sides. I suppose we can only pray that men and women begin to open their eyes to the importance of encouragement of (and belief in) the other’s abilities.
Thanks for a wonderful post!
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saw this post on “brag on him” at BlissD–great!
“stop writing how hilariously incompetent your husband is…” is exactly why so many sitcoms MAKE ME CRAZY. hot wife and fat bumbling man must go together! argh.
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